i need a little help here

katiecorrado

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i need a little help here

« on: May 14, 2008, 11:32:23 PM »

i'll try to sum this up quickly:

car starts producing little "puffs" of smoke on start up in the morning (after sitting overnight)
this progresses to being a light trail when stopped at red lights
i take it to a few different places for opinions
collectively, we decide (hope) that it is the valve stem seals
leakdown numbers are low...
replace seals and notice exhaust guide cyl#1 seems to be 1.5mm shallow ???
we decide, do to time/money, to replace all seals and hope for the best
still smoking
what to do next...

do i assume it's the shallow guide allowing oil to trickle down into the cylinder???
how do i rule out the head gasket or ring wear or (fill in the blank)?

if i rebuild my spare head, put it on, and it still smokes... i'll know it's the bottom end, but i won't have the money to do anything about it....

what other testing can i do?


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FAB 5 FREDDY

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2008, 02:52:29 AM »

sounds like rings to me. i would either drive it spareingly or just drive it till you can rebuild the engine. just my 2c.


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dreadlocks

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2008, 09:53:35 AM »

What color smoke? Sounds like a leaky headgasket to me... your gona have to pull your head regardless so yank it off and find out the issue..


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katiecorrado

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2008, 06:25:39 PM »

Quote from: speedbump on May 15, 2008, 02:52:29 AM

sounds like rings to me. i would either drive it spareingly or just drive it till you can rebuild the engine. just my 2c.

but if it were the rings, wouldn't there have been leakage during the leakdown testing?

Quote from: dreadlocks on May 15, 2008, 09:53:35 AM

What color smoke? Sounds like a leaky headgasket to me... your gona have to pull your head regardless so yank it off and find out the issue..

white w/ a hint of blue... again, wouldn't the headgasket produced higher numbers during the leakdown?

and i have a spare head to swap out... we had the head apart a bit when we replaced the seals... that's why we are leaning towards the wonky guides... plus the rings were done about a year ago and tested 170-180 compression last summer after i drove across the country...

headgasket is going to be replaced either way... same with the guides... it's the bottom end i want to rule out... if that's possible.

i appreciate the 2c
thumbsup

edit for more info:
cyl #1 5% w/ exhaust guide being 1.5 mm shallow- seal came out very easily
cyl #2 2%
cyl #3 7%
cyl #4 7%


« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 06:30:23 PM by katiecorrado »	Logged

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pschmidt

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2008, 06:45:57 PM »

Have you done a dry vs. wet compression test? If not, pour a tablespoon of oil into the cylinder and see if the numbers come up. If they come up substantially it's the rings.

If you rail on the car, coast down with a ton of manifold vacuum, then romp on it again, does it make a huge cloud? If it does that points to the valve guides.

When your guys says shallow, does he mean worn?

Run a leakdown test and see if two adjacent cylinders are low. That'll point to the head gasket.

Not that this is a lot:
"cyl #3 7%
cyl #4 7%"
but that would make me look at the head gasket between the two cylinders.


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katiecorrado

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2008, 09:31:59 PM »

Quote from: pschmidt on May 15, 2008, 06:45:57 PM

haven't done a wet compression test yet...

as far as "railing" on the car... when we put it on the dyno (immediately after doing the seals) it did produce a huge cloud of smoke somewhere in between 2nd and 3rd gear... but it looked dark- completely different color smoke than the stuff i get in the morning and at red lights.

and to clarify the "shallow guide"- when the head was rebuilt, somehow an odd guide was put in... all the guides match except for the exhaust guide in cyl #1. it sits 1.5 mm ish lower than the rest. Probably looked exactly the same on the table at the machine shop before it was installed... but the valve stem seal came out really, REALLY easily... so the guide is shorter than it should be not allowing for the valve stem seal to properly seat itself...

i did take notice of the 7% on #4 & #5... not that it's alot- just different from the other 2... i suspect it's not the cause of the majority of the smoke, but with it being a MLS gasket between an ABA bottom and 1.8 head... i'm sure it's contributing.

how does the huge cloud of smoke points to guides (i'm just curious and in know way being sarcastic). This theory is pointing in the direction I'm leaning towards and hoping for...

edit: also, the car hasn't been running as hot as it once did (which i thought was a good thing, but maybe it's not). i would say the oil and water temps have decreased (at their hottest) about 20 degrees or so...


« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 09:34:12 PM by katiecorrado »	Logged

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need_a_VR6

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2008, 07:32:49 PM »

Blue smoke on cold start is classic valve seals if not the guides themselves as well. It will also show up on heavy decel. Ring problems show up the worst under heavy load.


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pschmidt

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2008, 03:19:44 AM »

What he said. If you're getting the smoke on decel it's probably the guides.

I'd still run a wet compression to eliminate the rings.


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katiecorrado

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2008, 10:12:40 AM »

thanks guys wave

i'm going to have my spare rebuilt head checked over and freshened up while i do some more testing. I'll be doing another leakdown... moving from TDC to BDC to see if there is any wear in the cylinder walls. The I'll do the dry vs wet compression to check the rings. If everything checks out, I'll just swap the heads... and put in my new cam.

Hey Paul, the guy working with me and the car set the timing back to 6 degrees BTDC... he said it was really "off" from what where it should've been (not you're work) and it seems to have a low, unstable idle now at the 6... do you think i should have him put it back to 8 degrees BTDC? and does the cam make a difference? it's a used 260, so nothing to crazy...


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need_a_VR6

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2008, 08:24:14 PM »

How far off was it? With the cam it will like more timing at idle then stock. However, too much will cause pinging in the mid range.


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katiecorrado

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2008, 12:40:20 PM »

Quote from: need_a_VR6 on May 17, 2008, 08:24:14 PM

How far off was it? With the cam it will like more timing at idle then stock. However, too much will cause pinging in the mid range.

plus i can only get 91 octane out here unless i want to splurge on 100 octane race fuel @ $9/gallon leave your feelings at home!

he didn't say, but i thought it was running well before he adjusted it. i assumed it was set to 8 BTDC (that's what i asked it to be set at last rebuild), but who knows.


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need_a_VR6

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2008, 05:01:02 PM »

Eh 91 would like about 2deg less up top then 93, and a little more off in the midrange. 6btdc set at 2k with the CLT unplugged would be a good place to start.


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katiecorrado

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2008, 05:20:44 PM »

Quote from: need_a_VR6 on May 18, 2008, 05:01:02 PM

Eh 91 would like about 2deg less up top then 93, and a little more off in the midrange. 6btdc set at 2k with the CLT unplugged would be a good place to start.

that's exactly where he set it. so i'll throw in the cam and not worry about the timing.


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need_a_VR6

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2008, 12:28:58 PM »

Sold.


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katiecorrado

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Re: i need a little help here

« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2008, 10:00:30 PM »

update:

new head is on the car- no smoke (guides confirmed)

had an idle issue, but that's resolved

finally fucking upgraded the original vac hoses to silicone (in blue)

nice new powder coated black valve cover

new air filter

260 cam is in

finally installed the vac/boost gauge

everything runs well wave

(Paul- left you a message, but we figured out what we need to thumbsup

)

edit: and i upgraded to a solid front mount and heavy duty rear mount.


« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 10:04:04 PM by katiecorrado »	Logged

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